[Tfug] Small-ish (capacity + size) disk alternatives

[ikemann]

Ha Ha Ha :).

I'm with Nathan on this one.

That said, I guess it is kind of edifying to spec out EGO.

Best.

-- ike


On Feb 1, 2013, at 1:06 PM, Nathan Hruby wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> You know what?  This thread is 100% batshit crazy.  I'm out.
> 
> -n
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Bexley Hall <bexley401 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Tyler,
> 
> 
> On 2/1/2013 1:51 AM, Tyler Kilian wrote:
> There is no IT installation that will be 100% unattended.  If your
> requirement be that it be based on PC architecture and use PC components,
> then expect PC problems.
> 
> I have no "requirement" that it be based on PC components.
> Unfortunately, those are the only sorts of things *you* will be
> able to purchase and "assemble"!
> 
> 
> There are tons of general automation systems that are firmware based
> 
> You've not done your homework.  Or, are still failing to understand
> the scope of this project.  See below for some examples of these
> "automation systems".
> 
> 
> and if I were a company looking to build a home controller, I would
> leverage something along those lines or spec out the system design
> from scratch.
> 
> If you were that company, you wouldn't approach a controller as
> ambitious as this!  Its too pervasive.  Too many different types
> of I/O's involved.  The sort of effort that would require lots
> of "tinkerers" each willing to invest a little of their time
> to interface to *their* particular devices (water softener, weather
> station, etc.), share those results with others who happen to have
> those same devices while SIMILARLY BENEFITING from the efforts
> of others to support some of the other devices that they have.
> 
> [Gee, sure sounds like the approach taken for open source projects!]
> 
> I.e., I have no desire to write drivers and design hardware interfaces
> for every model of weather station, garage door opener, PZT camera
> base, etc. on the market!  I'll design for what *I* have and let
> others peer over my shoulder to see *how* I approached the task in
> the hope that they can "tinker" with my *existing* design instead of
> having to start from scratch.
> 
> [Over the years, I have noticed that very few folks can sit with
> a blank piece of paper and "create" -- most need a framework that
> someone else has already implemented... that they can "modify"]
> 
> 
> Either way, the instant I want to store video locally or do anything
> 
> The drive in question is not used to store video (or audio).
> What can you store on a tiny 30G drive -- one/two movies, a
> few albums and the rest of the software?  I store multimedia on
> external USB drives (currently.  I will migrate this to iSCSI
> in the future) using "conventional" filesystems.
> 
> Users are already familiar with external USB drives.  And, as
> long as I avoid proprietary filesystem formats, they can
> "maintain" that media inventory using COTS tools -- a Mac,
> a PC, etc. (so I don't have to create tools to do this work)
> 
> If such a drive *fails*, the user can go to Costco and purchase
> a replacement.  If they lose their media inventory, <shrug>
> Next time, buy *two* drives and make a copy (using your PC)
> onto the backup drive.
> 
> [Why not have a "copy media" utility built into the system?
> Because then you'll go to Costco with a defective drive and
> try to explain to them how your Frajistat9000 gave you an
> "error 27:  replace drive" message.  And they will look at
> you with a blank stare:  "Is that a Mac or a PC?"]
> 
> 
> requiring gigs of data locally, I move from the firmware systems to
> requiring hard disks. Disks mean disk failures. That's just how it is.
> 
> You seem to misunderstand "firmware".  It has nothing to do with *how*
> the "software" is stored (e.g., ROM/FLASH vs. magnetic media).  It
> is simply "persistent storage for program/data that controls a device".
> I've designed systems where the firmware resided in masked ROM XIP,
> FLASH loaded into RAM at IPL, *core* memory, *floppy* disk (you can
> smuggle a floppy through customs but a new set of ROMs will often
> raise eyebrows and "require" a bribe -- "Gee, those look like they
> might be IMPORTANT to you..."), etc.  Even one system that loaded
> its firmware over an EIA232 serial link!
> 
> A hard disk is just another form of "persistent memory".  In my
> case, one in which I can exploit its surplus capacity to use as
> virtual memory (considerably more difficult to do this if *ROM*
> based firmware) instead of having to add *physical* memory!
> 
> [This is called "adding value"]
> 
> 
> If I were a company wanting to make it user friendly, I would design
> an enclosure where the disks are easily pulled (like an Xbox) and
> mirror them, building in the logic to do this all automatically with
> simple notifications.  I would make it as small as possible, but
> ultimately, a system this complex would require a commitment of the
> user of supplying sufficient space.
> 
> ... and power, and ventilation/cooling, etc.  Easily accessible
> (since you are planning on failures), regularly "cleaned" (dust
> bunnies, insect infestations, etc.).  All issues that almost
> guarantee it will be ages before it is affordable and commonplace
> and not just an elitist toy!
> 
> ["Rich folk" have had such systems for ages!  But, they called
> them "household staff/servants"!  Notice how well *that* idea
> has caught on... after GENERATIONS!! :-/ ]
> 
> 
> It wouldn't be a cheap solution
> even if it were amazing.  It would take several generations to refine.
> All of this, properly done to meet your goals would be doable, but it
> would be custom.
> 
> Instead, your approach is start with a Micro PC and grouse that hard
> drives aren't reliable enough.  Champagne wishes on the proverbial soda
> pop budget.
> 
> Gee, one message ago, *you* were stating:
>         "I really think a solution exists.  The worry, to me,
> 
>         seems unfounded.  If it were me, I'd invest in a good
>         quality drive."
> Has your opinion changed *that* quickly?
> 
> Note that *my* approach was to start with a fully custom solution
> built from the ground up -- so I can control form factor, power
> consumption, cost, performance, reliability, etc.  I.e., the same way
> I would design a medical instrument, gasoline pump or slot machine.
> 
> But, that excludes others ("tinkerers") from being able to replicate
> the design and makes it considerably more expensive for them to
> *purchase* the necessary "custom" hardware (by a factor of 3 or 4).
> 
> Should I similarly exploit other "professional" design methodologies
> that make *my* job easier (proprietary IDEs, VHDL tools, PCB layout
> tools, etc.) and expect those same "tinkerers" to make the sorts of
> investments that I've (already) made?  Everyone has a reflow oven
> and SMT rework tools at their disposal, right?  Reballing arrays
> is now taught in grade school, if I'm not mistaken (?)
> 
> I opted to steer my design along a path that could be *emulated*
> with COTS hardware.  Granted, those "tinkerers" would pay higher
> power bills and have to find larger spaces in which to stash their
> implementations (tower cases, etc.).  But, they'd be able to do
> so.  I wouldn't have locked them out by making choices that had
> no obvious COTS parallels that they could take advantage of.
> 
> 
> If you really wish to build something like this, you are going to have
> to accept some limitations and/or be prepared for custom engineering.
> 
> So, you've confirmed my earlier suspicions:  custom engineer the
> system for myself (this is what I do professionally) and force
> any others who might have wanted to benefit from my efforts to
> go to a retail outlet to *purchase* something equivalent -- whenever
> mainstream vendors advance to this level of sophistication.
> 
> [I'm looking to *retire*, not manufacture toys!]
> 
> 
> Your desires are simply beyond the scope of homebrew tinkering.
> 
> I.e., don't bother making it an FOSS offering -- it's *beyond* the
> capabilities of "tinkerers" to replicate, enhance, etc.  That
> definitely makes it a lot easier!  I can just steal the memory
> subsystem from another (similar) project and build on that.
> 
> Others with similar interests need not fret!  There are COTS
> solutions available for them!  (almost)
> 
> Heck, for a couple of thousand dollars, you can get the whole house
> "music distribution" capabilities I've targeted:
>     <http://www.sonos.com/shop/>
> 
> Maybe someone will design a similar whole home *video* solution
> as well (of course, that will be a separate system with much of
> the same costs replicated as the above).  Of course, you
> probably won't be able to just plug a "spare" widescreen LCD
> monitor into that box... they'll undoubtedly want to sell
> you that, as well!
> 
> I suppose you could purchase a COTS VoIP system with a software
> PBX so you can have "smart" voice comms within the home (I'm
> sure the sonos system can't be easily adapted to that purpose.
> Oh, well... all those existing "audio paths" but only available
> for playing music!)
> 
> We already know you can purchase a surveillance system for a few
> hundred dollars.  With an appropriate mixer or PiP TV, you can
> probably arrange to view that surveillance video *live* while
> enjoying a movie, etc.
> 
> And, for $300, Nest makes a sexxy thermostat!
>    <http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/?ref=gmc>
> 
> There are "smart" irrigation controllers that will interface
> with environmental monitoring systems (temperature, rainfall,
> dew point).  Some you can even talk to remotely:
>    <http://www.weathermatic.com/content/smartlink-network-contractors>
> Maybe someone will devise a web link that allows them to
> query local forecasts to *anticipate* tomorrow's weather
> conditions as well (sure, you don't want to be watering the
> yard WHILE it's raining.  Or, soon *after* it rained.  But,
> you also wouldn't want to water *today* if it is going to rain
> tomorrow!)
> 
> SmartHome will let you piece together various assorted bits of
> automation to tackle your laundry, appliance, garage door, etc.
> needs (well, sort of...):
>    <http://www.smarthome.com/_/index.aspx>
> 
> There's even a commercial service that will let you control
> bits of your home remotely via your iPhone (for $2/day).
> 
> All you'll (tinkerer) have to do is figure out how to get all
> these things "integrated" so they can talk to each other (the sum
> is greater than the parts).  *Then*, figure out how to give them
> "smarts" so they can anticipate your needs instead of just sitting
> dumbly awaiting your "commands".
> 
> Should be a nice little "weekend project", eh?  :>
> 
> Please spend some time *researching* the scope of such a project
> before *casually* tossing out "If I were doing this..." advice.
> Everything is ALWAYS easy and obvious -- when "you" aren't tasked
> with making it happen!
> 
> People come up with "solutions" to all the world's problems every day!
> Yet, somehow, those problems persist...
> 
>    "Genius is one percent inspiration,
>    ninety-nine percent perspiration."
>       -- T A Edison
> 
>    "God in the detail"
>       -- anon
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------
> nathan hruby <nhruby at gmail.com>
> metaphysically wrinkle-free
> -------------------------------------------
> 
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