[Tfug] upstart WAS: Re: tfug Digest, Vol 94, Issue 20

Tue May 31 23:42:00 MST 2011

Hmm.  Shocking as it is that initd may soon cease to spawn...

I'm not convinced that upstartd solves  "a problem doesn't exist"  - After
all it's pretty hard to disprove a null hypothesis. :)

However, I don't know enough about how asynchronous (non-boot time)
additions of unknown usb devices are currently handled to make a proper
judgement call - Though intuitively the logic for the change is reasonable.

That aside - I have two thoughts.
1) To me the beauty of Linux (and modern open-source unixy OSes) is their
flexibility and the "replace a part" design. If initd needs improvement -
replace it. If the improvement sucks, I'm sure someone will release a distro
more to your liking.
2) More troubling to me about upstart is the fact that it does not appear to
be true open source. IE the canonical licensing restrictions. see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstart

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:16 AM, <tfug-request at tfug.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: Well, now i've seen it all. (earljviolet at deserthowler.com)
>   2. Re: Well, now i've seen it all. (keith smith)
>   3. Re: Well, now i've seen it all. (keith smith)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 08:50:20 -0700
> From: earljviolet at deserthowler.com
> To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
> Message-ID:
>        <f4dccd455387753729d589699ec2fe08.squirrel at deserthowler.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I remember that.  I was just starting with Linux and didn't have the
> knowledge to join the panic for the "end of the world as we know it."  But
> the world is still here.  And I can move disks from machine to machine
> without problems generally.
>
> Earl
>
> On Tue, May 31, 2011 8:23 am, Dave Thompson wrote:
> > Ubuntu has been using upstart since version 6.10 (2006), and the world
> > hasn't ended. Here's an article describing why:
> > http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/57213. I'm guessing that the root of
> > Bowie's discontent matches this line from the article: "modern desktop
> > computers and servers are very different beasts from those in use ten
> > [15] years ago".
> >
> > On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 1:02 AM, Bowie J. Poag <bpoag at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >> Amusingly, IIRC, this is how NeXT was.....Pure BSD, one big ass startup
> >> script. :)
> >>
> >>> I'm surprised you're not pining for BSD style initscripts or DJB's
> >>> daemontools...
> >>>
> >>> - Zack
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> If you play a Windows install CD backwards it has satanic verses.
> Save the Earth... it's the only planet with chocolate!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 08:52:25 -0700 (PDT)
> From: keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
> To: Tucson Free Unix Group <tfug at tfug.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
> Message-ID: <898983.50896.qm at web111703.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Bowie,?
>
> You might be one of the smartest and talented people on this list.? I
> understand a triangle shaped tire.? What I do not understand is why you make
> that analogy.?
>
> If you were an attorney and arguing a case you would lose because you have
> not laid the foundation and helped the court understand why.
>
> Just because you make a statement does not make it so.
>
> I for one am truly interested in why you think these changes are bad.
>
> ------------------------
>
> Keith Smith
>
> --- On Mon, 5/30/11, Bowie J. Poag <bpoag at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From: Bowie J. Poag <bpoag at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
> To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Cc: "tfug at tfug.org" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 11:17 PM
>
> You want me to give you a technical analysis of a triangular tire?
>
> ...I'd venture that most people on this list would know instinctively that
> it's a bad idea.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 30, 2011, at 4:40 PM, Glen Pfeiffer <glen at thepfeiffers.net> wrote:
>
> > On 30 May 2011, bpoag at comcast.net wrote:
> >> No. It's just that i'd prefer that the Unix variant i'm using
> >> not have a layout designed by children who haven't yet grasped
> >> the concept of "It's there for a reason. Learn what it does,
> >> first, before you decide it can be improved upon."
> > [snip]
> >
> > You typed quite a few words, but said nothing of value. This is a
> > technical list. Most of us will engage in and respond to a decent
> > technical analysis of the issues with the new system, etc.
> >
> > But your post reeks of sensationalistic media style reporting.
> >
> > Go away and come back when you can make a sound argument against
> > the change.
> >
> > --
> > Glen
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
> To: Tucson Free Unix Group <tfug at tfug.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
> Message-ID: <207439.14779.qm at web111716.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Forgive my ignorance, however wouldn't we want to use chkconfig to manage
> services?
>
> So why is the way we do things now so much better than the proposed
> changes?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------
>
> Keith Smith
>
> --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Bowie J. Poag <bpoag at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From: Bowie J. Poag <bpoag at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
> To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Cc: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 12:41 AM
>
> Hi KeitH,
> Do you remember that feeling you had when you discovered that Unix doesn't
> have a "rename" command for files?
> There are two types of Unix geeks. Well call them Type A and Type B.?
> Type A admins are usually under the age of 25. They're the ones that say,
> "OMG NO RENAME CMND???, TATS CRAZY!!, YAY OPN SOURS LRTS MAKE ONE in
> JAVA!!,", compose a scathing tweet against Unix and merrily set about
> reinventing the wheel.?
> Type B admins are the ones that say, "Hm...Interesting...That can't
> possibly be an oversight. The task of renaming a file is probably
> encompassed by a different command somewhere.", and let experience lead them
> to the correct answer. mv. And more importantly, how to *use* mv.
> The correct way to control what does or doesn't get launched during init's
> startup is to simply apply the methods you already know and use to control
> the behavior of any other program's startup in Unix -- by
> ommenting/uncommenting, or moving files out of the way.?
> Don't want S26foobardaemon to kick off when going into run level 3? Rename
> it to _S26foobardaemon. That way, it won't be picked up, it leaves
> everything else in that runlevel undisturbed, and you have a visual marker
> that tells you which daemons in a given run level are enabled or disabled.
> You don't need chkconfig, systemd, and upstart. You need mv, a text editor,
> and a gentle reminder that this is Unix--if you can't figure out how to do
> it simply, you're probably doing it wrong.
> Cheers,Bowie
>
> On May 30, 2011, at 7:26 PM, keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I'd like to hear why one is better than another, in more sys level detail
> so I can understand why you object.
>
> ------------------------
>
> Keith Smith
>
> --- On Mon, 5/30/11, bpoag at comcast.net <bpoag at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From: bpoag at comcast.net <bpoag at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
> To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 4:11 PM
>
> #yiv881860169  p {margin:0;}
> No. It's just that i'd prefer that the Unix variant i'm using not have a
> layout designed by children who haven't yet grasped the concept of "It's
> there for a reason. Learn what it does, first, before you decide it can be
> improved upon."
>
> Refer to the analogy I used. :) It's the best one I can come up with to
> describe the problem..Someone comes along and tells you that your car's
> tires can be improved
>  upon using a new and impressive tire design. One that offers improved
> friction and better braking distance by virtue of having more rubber in
> contact with the ground. It's only after you realize they're referring to
> triangular tires that you realize how unbelievably fucking stupid it is, and
> go back to round tires. I'm all for re-examining the ways we do things in
> Unix, but by the same token, I don't need a well-meaning, bright-eyed,
> bushy-tailed youngster with 3 years of Unix experience under his belt
> selling me (or you) on an idea they think works better than what's already
> been in place for 40 years. :)
>
> I actually took some time and read up on systemd/upstart. IMHO, In the end,
> they're both fantastic solutions to a problem which don't exist, and were
> both born from a lack of understanding of basic Unix concepts. Linux seems
> regularly haunted with this sort of phenomenon. Someone in a position to
> determine the shape of a distro doesn't really
>  get a certain concept, so, rather than learn it, he goes about reinventing
> the wheel. The reinvention process is deemed important by throngs of people
> who simply assume that since it's new, it's better. They then invest in the
> time required to learn how a new wheel should be invented, and the
> proverbial ball starts rolling.
>
> The same thing is likely going to occur here. The loveable funsters hard at
> work on the triangular tire will eventually discover that square tires work
> a little better, then pentagonal tires, then heptagonal, then, octagonal,
> dodecagonal....working their way right back to the way shit used to be. I'm
> just tired of watching that crap.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Rini" <trini at kernel.crashing.org>
> To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 3:25:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Well, now i've seen it all.
>
> On Mon, May 30,
>  2011 at 1:50 PM, ?<bpoag at comcast.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> > ...and people wonder why I switched to OS X.
>
> You couldn't want for Linux to get around to coming up with a few
> implementations of the idea and not quite settling on one yet?
>
> Seriously tho, yes, F15 is seriously pushing one of the alternatives
> to sysvinit so in a few more cycles there should really be something
> useful here for most.
>
> --
> Tom
>
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-- 
********
Shanna Leonard
ssl at email.arizona.edu
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