[Tfug] OT - WAS Re: Cyber War -oh noes | Now H1B Visa Rant

johngalt1 johngalt1 at uswest.net
Sat Jan 10 15:16:48 MST 2009 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "cara" <pinkgranite>
To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Tfug] OT - WAS Re: Cyber War -oh noes | Now 
H1B Visa Rant


> Here's something that I've been noticing which is related 
> to this thread (I
> think). My computer science career has led me to the study 
> of
> Service-Oriented Architectures (SOA). On two of my jobs so 
> far, programmers
> have been super threatened by any talk of SOA. "Oh my god, 
> you autogenerate
> code?!" Programmers assume it's another big threat to 
> their jobs. But, it is
> pretty obvious that these SOA projects need people with 
> business smarts and
> if the people have technical skills, well, that's an added 
> bonus. I'm still
> mystified why so many programmers are threatened by the 
> increasing amount of
> autogenerated code for client-server components ... 
> components using axis
> projects, xerces, castor, embedded xdoclet ... whatever. 
> In my opinion,
> getting the plumbing in place, could help you focus on the 
> fine-grained
> problems.
>
> Along with communication being more important at times 
> than technical
> skills, solving business problems seems more important 
> than too much worry
> about shipping the techical app work to India. I would 
> hope that American
> programmers, esp. those who grow and learn beyond just 
> programming, will
> always have good jobs available. Yeah, our entire economy 
> looks like a giant
> ponzi scheme ... maybe we will start making useful things 
> and actually have
> some business problems to solve in 2009, eh?

Your ideas kick ass. Mitigating the shipment of work 
off-seas only goes so far, IMO.

It's like trying to hold back the hill climber behind you. 
You better out climb them if you want to get there first.

>
> cara
>
> On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Joshua Zeidner 
> <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Keith,
>>
>>  there is a lot of erroneous information floating around 
>> regarding
>> outsourcing and foreign labor.  A few notes are inserted 
>> below.
>>
>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:13 AM, keith smith 
>> <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I took a beating when I brought up the H1B visa issue 
>> > months ago.
>>  Someone
>> > asked me if I were afraid that someone more skilled 
>> > would take my job.
>>
>>  this approach can sometimes appear to make some sense. 
>> But it also
>> defies everything on our law books, and the concepts we 
>> have built up
>> over the years that concern what is good for Americans 
>> and what is
>> not.  We have, and continue to expand the visa program on 
>> the basis
>> that there is a /shortage/ of labor, that is the 
>> (practically) the
>> sole justifier for its expansion.  Do we really have a 
>> shortage?
>>
>> >
>> > I'm not afraid of the skilled.  Someone more skilled 
>> > and experienced is
>> at
>> > more risk than I am because they cost more.  I'm afraid 
>> > of someone who is
>> > willing to work for less while exporting their 
>> > disposable income back to
>> > their third world country to support an entire family. 
>> > This is an
>> example
>> > of what is weakening our country.
>>
>>  this is a basic feature of our geopolitical system that 
>> has existed
>> (arguably) since WWII and has been exaggerated greatly 
>> since Bush took
>> office and, more importantly, the USSR was dissolved 
>> (remember
>> outsourcing in India began when the USSR ended, as India 
>> was one of
>> the USSRs major trading partners).  What most dont 
>> understand is that
>> this disparity in currency value is not some kind of 
>> natural
>> occurrence.  We support it, indirectly through our policy 
>> mainly.  It
>> persists at our cost, and more importantly at the costs 
>> of the people
>> who live in those countries.  For instance, the Rupee is 
>> kept
>> unnaturally low by constant inflation by the central bank 
>> in India.
>> This has quite drastic effects for the average Rupee 
>> user, who doesn't
>> understand what inflation is and how they are being 
>> robbed (and there
>> are lots of people like that in India).  If our rubric 
>> here is that
>> 'things are cheaper in India' and thus dev services are 
>> cheaper, why
>> does that not hold true for areas of the US which are 
>> dirt cheap to
>> live (coming soon to Tucson), and actually have superior
>> infrastructure to that of India?
>>
>>  now consider for a moment what would happen if this 
>> currency
>> disparity ceased to exist.  It would be devastating for 
>> Asian region,
>> because services exports to the US would stop entirely 
>> (and this is
>> their singular source of growth).  I think at this point 
>> we support
>> this situation partially because those profiting from it 
>> throw in, and
>> partially because of the military risk that a collapse 
>> poses to the
>> area and the world.  So the whole system is strung up so 
>> tightly that
>> its unwinding poses even a threat to our national safety 
>> at this point
>> (or at least that is the perception).
>>
>> >
>> > I hope people understand that Joshua is right.
>> >
>> > We are using tax payer money to create a fake economy 
>> > and if it works
>> these
>> > same companies will have no loyalty to you or I.
>>
>>  right!  Consider this for instance:
>>
>>    1) We spend money to keep housing prices afloat (lots 
>> of money)
>>    2) Housing prices are kept elevated
>>    3) cost of living (which is tied to housing costs) is 
>> floated
>>    4) the living wage (breadline) is floated
>>    5) the cost of operating a business in america remains 
>> high
>>    6) domestic industry is insolvent
>>    7) domestic industry requires tax money to survive
>>
>>  so its like we're eating our own tail here.  They funds 
>> we apply
>> have the effect of requiring more funds to keep other 
>> things intact.
>> In general, Americans need to be much more critical of 
>> our trade
>> policy and how it effects the economics in the home- most 
>> of these
>> agreements are, if anything, designed to take bread out 
>> of your mouth.
>>
>> >
>> > I personally draw the line.  I could hire off shore for 
>> > $5 - $12 / hour.
>>  I
>> > would make fantastic profits.  But I chose not to.
>>
>>  have you actually tried it though?  I find offshore 
>> developers to be
>> unreliable and generally not worth the time and effort. 
>> The costs in
>> a project are in clarity of communication, and less so in 
>> 'technical
>> proficiency'.  The vast majority of what is considered a 
>> value
>> exchange in outsourcing situations is what I might call 
>> an HR ruse,
>> for lack of a better term.  These days, most shops have 
>> abandoned the
>> idea that India is a fantastic value and have either 
>> readjusted their
>> expectations or given up altogether.  Outsourcing may be 
>> a good value
>> for very large corps, which would make sense in the 
>> broader framework
>> that I am presenting here.  Again such a feature poses a 
>> very great
>> threat to individual economic prosperity and thus 
>> economic health as a
>> whole.
>>
>> >
>> > If and when I hire I will chose American (as in USA) 
>> > labor.
>>
>>  thats an interesting tact and if you remember first 
>> emerged in
>> America when NAFTA was drafted.  We're not going to 
>> enforce buying
>> decisions on a personal basis through law, guilt 
>> tripping, or even
>> social coercion.  The key here is to reconsider the trade 
>> agreements
>> that we created in the first place.
>>
>> >
>> > While I think unions are abusive, one of the things we 
>> > can learn from
>> them
>> > is that if we stand together we have power.  If we 
>> > stand alone they can
>> do
>> > whatever they want.
>>
>>  It seems that they are going to return...
>>
>>  http://www.programmersguild.org/
>>
>>  -jmz
>>
>> >
>> > On a side note we need to let the system work. 
>> > Selection of the fittest
>> > will make us lean and mean again.  Incurring 3 trillion 
>> > is national debt
>> in
>> > of itself should send up thousands of red flags.
>> >
>> > ------------------------
>> > Keith Smith
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Joshua Zeidner 
>> > <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Tfug] Cyber War -oh noes
>> > To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
>> > Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 7:50 PM
>> >
>> >   at this point in time, there is little justification 
>> > for the h1b
>> > visa program.  Make no mistakes folks, your jobs are 
>> > being used as
>> > bargaining chips in the political process.
>> >
>> >   -jmz
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Tim Ottinger 
>> > <tottinge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Because we are consumers of people, and there is more 
>> >> money in brokering
>> >> already-skilled people than prodicing skilled people.
>> >>
>> >> I find that some schools are consumers of
>> >  already-good-students rather
>> > than
>> >> producers of them. Appparently if you aren't a born 
>> >> test-taker,
>> > you've got
>> >> small chance of making it. A high school teacher told 
>> >> me that only the
>> > honor
>> >> role students are worth her time.
>> >>
>> >> As a result perfectly good, bright people are left and 
>> >> lost and
>> > inexpensive
>> >> replacements are shipped in.
>> >>
>> >> Capitalist consumerism is harsh when your merchandise 
>> >> is encumbered with
>> a
>> >> pesky soul.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >> From: keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
>> >> Sent: January 07, 2009 6:54 PM
>> >> To: Tucson Free Unix Group <tfug at tfug.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Cyber War -oh noes
>> >>
>> >> Failing the brightest was one of my arguments
>> >> against H1B Visas a while back.
>> >>
>> >> Why does bill gates import labor.  Why has he not used 
>> >> his wealth
>> >>
>> >  and influence to identify the brightest and put them 
>> > in an
>> >> environment where they can be challenged beyond 
>> >> anything anyone
>> >> of us would have ever expected.
>> >>
>> >> We are failing ourselves!
>> >>
>> >> Why do we fail to identify, mentor, and push, while 
>> >> providing for
>> >> these people?
>> >>
>> >> ------------------------
>> >> Keith Smith
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Glen Pfeiffer 
>> >> <glen at thepfeiffers.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From: Glen Pfeiffer <glen at thepfeiffers.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Cyber War -oh noes
>> >> To: tfug at tfug.org
>> >> Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 5:33 PM
>> >>
>> >> On Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 03:38:52PM -0800, Bexley Hall 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> How many folks can't "count change"?  Or, form a
>> >> "correct"
>> >>> sentence?  (or, write wItHoUt *abusing* punctuation!! 
>> >>> :> )
>> >>>
>> >>> How many *question* what they are
>> >  "told"?  How many know
>> >>> how to find their own "answer"?  :-/
>> >>>
>> >>> <shrug>  Dunno.  Perhaps it is attributable to people 
>> >>> having
>> >>> "less time" (?  then, where did all that time *go*?).
>> >>
>> >> I think there are many possible causes, and likely 
>> >> more than one
>> >> actual cause, for what you are describing. One might 
>> >> be that
>> >> those who were once uneducated now have a middle or 
>> >> high school
>> >> education and are able to contribute more to society. 
>> >> But they
>> >> are still unable to perform at the level you expect.
>> >>
>> >> You might have
>> >>  noticed that I listed a high school education
>> >> above. That is because at the same time we are "not 
>> >> leaving any
>> >> child behind" we are failing t
>> >>
>> >> [The entire original message is not included]
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