[Tfug] OT - WAS Re: Cyber War -oh noes | Now H1B Visa Rant

Sat Jan 10 14:04:50 MST 2009

Here's something that I've been noticing which is related to this thread (I
think). My computer science career has led me to the study of
Service-Oriented Architectures (SOA). On two of my jobs so far, programmers
have been super threatened by any talk of SOA. "Oh my god, you autogenerate
code?!" Programmers assume it's another big threat to their jobs. But, it is
pretty obvious that these SOA projects need people with business smarts and
if the people have technical skills, well, that's an added bonus. I'm still
mystified why so many programmers are threatened by the increasing amount of
autogenerated code for client-server components ... components using axis
projects, xerces, castor, embedded xdoclet ... whatever. In my opinion,
getting the plumbing in place, could help you focus on the fine-grained
problems.

Along with communication being more important at times than technical
skills, solving business problems seems more important than too much worry
about shipping the techical app work to India. I would hope that American
programmers, esp. those who grow and learn beyond just programming, will
always have good jobs available. Yeah, our entire economy looks like a giant
ponzi scheme ... maybe we will start making useful things and actually have
some business problems to solve in 2009, eh?

cara

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:

> Keith,
>
>  there is a lot of erroneous information floating around regarding
> outsourcing and foreign labor.  A few notes are inserted below.
>

>
> On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:13 AM, keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I took a beating when I brought up the H1B visa issue months ago.
>  Someone
> > asked me if I were afraid that someone more skilled would take my job.
>
>  this approach can sometimes appear to make some sense.  But it also
> defies everything on our law books, and the concepts we have built up
> over the years that concern what is good for Americans and what is
> not.  We have, and continue to expand the visa program on the basis
> that there is a /shortage/ of labor, that is the (practically) the
> sole justifier for its expansion.  Do we really have a shortage?
>
> >
> > I'm not afraid of the skilled.  Someone more skilled and experienced is
> at
> > more risk than I am because they cost more.  I'm afraid of someone who is
> > willing to work for less while exporting their disposable income back to
> > their third world country to support an entire family.  This is an
> example
> > of what is weakening our country.
>
>  this is a basic feature of our geopolitical system that has existed
> (arguably) since WWII and has been exaggerated greatly since Bush took
> office and, more importantly, the USSR was dissolved (remember
> outsourcing in India began when the USSR ended, as India was one of
> the USSRs major trading partners).  What most dont understand is that
> this disparity in currency value is not some kind of natural
> occurrence.  We support it, indirectly through our policy mainly.  It
> persists at our cost, and more importantly at the costs of the people
> who live in those countries.  For instance, the Rupee is kept
> unnaturally low by constant inflation by the central bank in India.
> This has quite drastic effects for the average Rupee user, who doesn't
> understand what inflation is and how they are being robbed (and there
> are lots of people like that in India).  If our rubric here is that
> 'things are cheaper in India' and thus dev services are cheaper, why
> does that not hold true for areas of the US which are dirt cheap to
> live (coming soon to Tucson), and actually have superior
> infrastructure to that of India?
>
>  now consider for a moment what would happen if this currency
> disparity ceased to exist.  It would be devastating for Asian region,
> because services exports to the US would stop entirely (and this is
> their singular source of growth).  I think at this point we support
> this situation partially because those profiting from it throw in, and
> partially because of the military risk that a collapse poses to the
> area and the world.  So the whole system is strung up so tightly that
> its unwinding poses even a threat to our national safety at this point
> (or at least that is the perception).
>
> >
> > I hope people understand that Joshua is right.
> >
> > We are using tax payer money to create a fake economy and if it works
> these
> > same companies will have no loyalty to you or I.
>
>  right!  Consider this for instance:
>
>    1) We spend money to keep housing prices afloat (lots of money)
>    2) Housing prices are kept elevated
>    3) cost of living (which is tied to housing costs) is floated
>    4) the living wage (breadline) is floated
>    5) the cost of operating a business in america remains high
>    6) domestic industry is insolvent
>    7) domestic industry requires tax money to survive
>
>  so its like we're eating our own tail here.  They funds we apply
> have the effect of requiring more funds to keep other things intact.
> In general, Americans need to be much more critical of our trade
> policy and how it effects the economics in the home- most of these
> agreements are, if anything, designed to take bread out of your mouth.
>
> >
> > I personally draw the line.  I could hire off shore for $5 - $12 / hour.
>  I
> > would make fantastic profits.  But I chose not to.
>
>  have you actually tried it though?  I find offshore developers to be
> unreliable and generally not worth the time and effort.  The costs in
> a project are in clarity of communication, and less so in 'technical
> proficiency'.  The vast majority of what is considered a value
> exchange in outsourcing situations is what I might call an HR ruse,
> for lack of a better term.  These days, most shops have abandoned the
> idea that India is a fantastic value and have either readjusted their
> expectations or given up altogether.  Outsourcing may be a good value
> for very large corps, which would make sense in the broader framework
> that I am presenting here.  Again such a feature poses a very great
> threat to individual economic prosperity and thus economic health as a
> whole.
>
> >
> > If and when I hire I will chose American (as in USA) labor.
>
>  thats an interesting tact and if you remember first emerged in
> America when NAFTA was drafted.  We're not going to enforce buying
> decisions on a personal basis through law, guilt tripping, or even
> social coercion.  The key here is to reconsider the trade agreements
> that we created in the first place.
>
> >
> > While I think unions are abusive, one of the things we can learn from
> them
> > is that if we stand together we have power.  If we stand alone they can
> do
> > whatever they want.
>
>  It seems that they are going to return...
>
>  http://www.programmersguild.org/
>
>  -jmz
>
> >
> > On a side note we need to let the system work.  Selection of the fittest
> > will make us lean and mean again.  Incurring 3 trillion is national debt
> in
> > of itself should send up thousands of red flags.
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Keith Smith
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Tfug] Cyber War -oh noes
> > To: "Tucson Free Unix Group" <tfug at tfug.org>
> > Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 7:50 PM
> >
> >   at this point in time, there is little justification for the h1b
> > visa program.  Make no mistakes folks, your jobs are being used as
> > bargaining chips in the political process.
> >
> >   -jmz
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Tim Ottinger <tottinge at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Because we are consumers of people, and there is more money in brokering
> >> already-skilled people than prodicing skilled people.
> >>
> >> I find that some schools are consumers of
> >  already-good-students rather
> > than
> >> producers of them. Appparently if you aren't a born test-taker,
> > you've got
> >> small chance of making it. A high school teacher told me that only the
> > honor
> >> role students are worth her time.
> >>
> >> As a result perfectly good, bright people are left and lost and
> > inexpensive
> >> replacements are shipped in.
> >>
> >> Capitalist consumerism is harsh when your merchandise is encumbered with
> a
> >> pesky soul.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
> >> Sent: January 07, 2009 6:54 PM
> >> To: Tucson Free Unix Group <tfug at tfug.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Cyber War -oh noes
> >>
> >> Failing the brightest was one of my arguments
> >> against H1B Visas a while back.
> >>
> >> Why does bill gates import labor.  Why has he not used his wealth
> >>
> >  and influence to identify the brightest and put them in an
> >> environment where they can be challenged beyond anything anyone
> >> of us would have ever expected.
> >>
> >> We are failing ourselves!
> >>
> >> Why do we fail to identify, mentor, and push, while providing for
> >> these people?
> >>
> >> ------------------------
> >> Keith Smith
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Glen Pfeiffer <glen at thepfeiffers.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Glen Pfeiffer <glen at thepfeiffers.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Tfug] Cyber War -oh noes
> >> To: tfug at tfug.org
> >> Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 5:33 PM
> >>
> >> On Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 03:38:52PM -0800, Bexley Hall wrote:
> >>> How many folks can't "count change"?  Or, form a
> >> "correct"
> >>> sentence?  (or, write wItHoUt *abusing* punctuation!!  :> )
> >>>
> >>> How many *question* what they are
> >  "told"?  How many know
> >>> how to find their own "answer"?  :-/
> >>>
> >>> <shrug>  Dunno.  Perhaps it is attributable to people having
> >>> "less time" (?  then, where did all that time *go*?).
> >>
> >> I think there are many possible causes, and likely more than one
> >> actual cause, for what you are describing. One might be that
> >> those who were once uneducated now have a middle or high school
> >> education and are able to contribute more to society. But they
> >> are still unable to perform at the level you expect.
> >>
> >> You might have
> >>  noticed that I listed a high school education
> >> above. That is because at the same time we are "not leaving any
> >> child behind" we are failing t
> >>
> >> [The entire original message is not included]
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