[Tfug] Fwd: Re: Not sure what I just did..

[John Gruenenfelder]

On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 08:09:39PM -0700, Joe Roberts wrote:
>   I don't blame you for being reticent but the degree to which the United
>   States actually restricts freedom or censors people is far less than
>   the sensationalistic press of the last few years would indicate.  I am,
>   as much as it is possible to be, an enemy of the so-called "politce
>   state", Big Brother, call it what you will, but, in fact, I will bet
>   you $100.00 right now that, were you to put up a site here in the
>   United States, no one  - meaning the authorities - would care.  One of
>   the problems in fighting the gradual decrease in our personal liberties
>   is exaggeration and overstatement by the state's enemies, which serves
>   no positive purpose that I am aware of.  If you are going to publish
>   terrorist how-to manuals (hello, Echelon, you look *hot* today!), that
>   might be a different story, but in an internet full of hysterical Alex
>   Jones type and gas mask porn, I doubt you are anywhere near a priority.
>   I would also add that the free speech record of other countries isn't
>   so hot as the sanctimoniousness of foreign critics would indicate
>   (witness how many countries have bans on "hate speech", Nazi symbolism,
>   and, in some cases, what the government considers deviant pornography -
>   even our otherwise enlightened neighbors to the north have their
>   excesses in this regard).   The authoritarians in the US government
>   tend to pick and choose their targets carefully.  Their working theory
>   is that if they limit their asshattery to those they think other USians
>   consider "marginal," they can get away with anything.  I do not think
>   attempts to silence or intimidate US citizens individually in the
>   United States, on the occasions they have done so, has gone very well
>   (remember that woman from the Green Party who was harrassed?  Not good
>   PR.)  Rather, the government seems to limit its focus on poor third
>   worlders that, they surmise, no one in the US cares about.
>   Statism just the same, and no less offensive (I, for one, believe that
>   rights apply to all people, in every country on earth, whether or not
>   their respective governments recognize them or not), but from a
>   practical standpoint, and with respect to your understandable fears, I
>   really think you're unlikely to encounter any problems on a website
>   about sustainability.  The US government is more likely to consider you
>   a hippie bearing wheatgrass, not a domestic threat.  In the spectrum of
>   supposed threats to the state, consider to what degree the government
>   is even likely to notice you.
>    -Quag7

I think you put it very well.  I'm quite far from being a libertarian, but I
still find the erosion of our personal liberties quite appalling.

Yet, as you said, overstating the problem is just as bad.  You see this so
incredibly often on the Internet.  Virtually every Ron Paul supporter seems to
have this tattooed onto the back of their hand.  All government is evil all
the time.

Through my Free Software work I managed to pick up a penpal (conincidentally,
in Sweden).  Well, I guess IM-pal is a better term these days.  We mostly
discuss Linux/computer topics, but occasionally delve into politics.

Like many of the more outspoken individuals on the Net, he was of the very
strong opinion that the US was a wasteland of government run roughshod over
personal liberties.  I did my best to explain to him that while we've got
problems, it's really nowhere near that bad.  But this view seems to be
pervasive among many people.

I used to know a fellow at the UofA who did IT and web work for the Free State
Project.  For those unaware, the FSP's goal is to gather a group of like
minded people (i.e. strongly libertarian) and, once that group is sufficiently
large, move to a low population state and there exert greater influence to
pass laws they prefer (less government).  Eventually, if all goes well, they
would push for secession.  Now, I think this is a stupid idea, but freedom
means you're free to have such ideas.

Now, at the time I was working with a number of Indian students.  I used to
talk at length with one of them about life here and life in India and politics
and whatnot.  When he learned of the FSP, he was quite shocked that something
like that would be allowed.  I explained to him why it was.  I told him that
short of secession, they weren't doing anything illegal and that the
government would be folly to try to disrupt them now.

It doesn't always work like that, of course, and this country isn't always a
bed of roses, but if I'm free to join a secessionist group that would be
quickly crushed in most other countries, then it can't be all bad.


Personally, I would have no reservations about posting anything to the Net on
a US hosted server.  If it was politically sensitive I'd still do it, but
might also consider mirroring in another country.

I like this country a whole lot.  But you can't help make it better if you
don't acknowledge the problems or the stupid things it has done in the past.
And in the same breath, you will have trouble fixing the problems you do
identify if you overstate them or blow them out of proportion.

I suppose people do this to make sure that cause X doesn't get looked over.
Unfortunately, the argument "Because it's unconstitutional" doesn't get people
excited like it used to, it seems.

I know I take that document very seriously.  During two summers I had the
opportunity to do some computer research work for the NSA.  It was quite a bit
of fun, actually.  And the people I met took their job seriously as well as
the protections afforded all citizens.  I can't speak for all of them, but I
know most would have balked at doing anything that flaunted the Constitution.
Of course, all it takes is a few bad apples to cause all sorts of mayhem.

One of the best ways to make things better is to not run off at the first sign
of trouble.  Think that the government might not like your website/research?
Do it anyway.  Citizens have substantial rights.  That's why, as Joe said,
most of the people the government picks on are non-citizens, people they can
more easily intimidate, unfortunately.


-- 
--John Gruenenfelder    Research Assistant, UMass Amherst student
                        Systems Manager, MKS Imaging Technology, LLC.
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