[Tfug] [stein.les at gmail.com: TCS General Meeting]

[Quag7]

On Mon, 2006-08-28 at 16:22 -0700, Jim Secan wrote:

> This whole "discussion" has been a microcosm of why the greater Linux
> community of geeks and the greater Windoze community of users (and I
> emphasize USERS here) never seem to communicate worth a diddlydamn.  Yes,
> its gawdawful magnificent that there are several dozen windows managers
> that you can paste over the top of Linux.  Yes, many of these are great
> stuff, and will save CPU cycles out the wazzoo.  However, given the speed
> at which most CPUs run these days, the average Windoze user DOESN'T GIVE
> SQUAT ABOUT THIS.

This is the Tucson Computer Society though.  I know the users you're
talking about - the kind you run into who are in long conversations with
staff about their needs, looking worried in CompUSA.  TCS sounds like -
I could be wrong - the kind of group that has a specific interest in
their systems - in computers in general - whatever their skill level.

I understand that talking about window managers to your grandmother who
just learned to check her e-mail for the first time would be overkill.
Not so a computer club though, but that's just my opinion.

> What a Windoze user wants, and I often fall into this same category, is a
> set of computer tools that allows him-and-or-her to do what they want to
> do.  And typically, what they "want to do" has to do with computers ONLY
> because the tools run on a computer.

Well, that's definitely one category of user.  But look, I was a Windows
user for years, didn't go to school for computers, or anything like
that, but I would definitely have been interested to see what another OS
could give me over Windows (the default) - including the choice of
window managers.  Windows's interface annoyed me long before Windows's
other problems did.

Lost in the whole ongoing discussion about what "users want" are the
Windows users who are not completely disinterested in their computers -
people who do have some interest even if they're not developers or full
blown computer geeks.  I've always thought that these people get lost in
the vast gulf between something like SLED or Mandriva and Gentoo on the
other side (xbuntu may be filling the gap for this crowd).

Then, one more step toward geekiness, there are the power users who use
Windows but hate it, but haven't switched because they still buy into
many 5-10 year old myths about Linux or things that haven't been true
for a long time.

These are low hanging fruit, and I'm guessing that these groups of
people are just the sort who join computer groups.

Certainly, if you're specifically talking to the "Just give me something
that works right so I can run my shop" types, maybe you focus
differently.  But in my mind, Linux evangelism has focused too much on
this group to the exclusion of others.  Certainly these people should
continue to be shown the benefits of Linux, but they're not the only
ones out there.   Nor are they, in my opinion, the "typical Windows
user."  Because Windows is used by so many people, I am not sure there
is such a thing.

This hasn't been my experience, anyway.  I have known a lot of the
people you describe (my parents and my wife are the most obvious
examples, actually), but in the middle 90s I worked as a tech in a
computer store - a Computer Renaissance back on the east coast, when it
was still a franchise.  At least 1/3rd (or more) of the people who came
in were hobbyists, power users, DIY-ers.  They didn't write code, but
they did like to install their own hard drives and install their own OS.

There are far more of these than is commonly recognized.  Not
developers, not people who know C++, not even people who necessarily
work in a tech career (the ones I'm thinking of now from the computer
store was actually a cop - the other was an x-ray tech who worked next
door).  They'd complain constanly about Windows, about things like
having focus stolen by popup Windows and so on.  These people would say
things like, "So what's OS/2 Warp - it looks cool, have you tried it?"

Low hanging fruit.

>   They don't want to have to do a lot
> of fiddling to get their tools to work (and lets leave the sophomoric snide
> comments about "tools" for the under-12s, please) and they don't want to
> have to (a) download six other tools so that tool X will work, and (b)
> relearn how tool X works every two or three years (or even months).  They
> want to spend their time using the computer to do what they enjoy, or need
> (for work), to do.

So what you're saying is they want strong dependency resolution and
metapackages.

Just kidding. ;)

I know what you're talking about.  But once again I'm guessing that the
kind of people who would take the time to join a computer club are maybe
just one step past that, and have an interest in their systems.  Notice
things like annoying UI behavior and inconsistencies, etc.  Which is why
I think WMs would be of interest.

> So, for a TCS-type Windoze crowd (and I'm not included the Linux SIG people
> in this grouping), you want to show them the windoze-like things they can
> do in Linux, with emphasis on things they want to be doing, which is not
> load six different windows managers.  They want to design quilts, they want
> to check Internet stock sites, they want to download pr0n (if truth be
> told), they want to send e-mail to Aunt Zelda and get the latest
> grandkiddies pictures off the Internet where their kids posted them, and
> they want to download and use music and videos.  THAT'S your audience, folks.

Is this really the case with TCS?  If Aunt Zelda who wants to get
grandkiddies' pictures off of the net is a typical TCS member - then you
have to make things a little more basic as you describe.  

However I would note that despite this, WM choice is something that
would be of broader interest than you seem to indicate.  It probably
doesn't take much other than having a life where you use computers a lot
to understand the benefits of different WM philosophies.  People will be
looking at them and thinking, "Wow, I wish Windows had that feature,"
or, "Good, you know, I don't need all of that junk on my screen anyway."
or even, "So it doesn't look like I'm going to be losing much of
anything if I move to Linux with this here guhnome." or "Dude I can
totally house Steve with Enlightenment when he comes over next week and
starts yapping about Windowblinds again."

WMs are graphical and colorful.  I don't think they're nearly as niche a
subject as you seem to be suggesting, because even the most basic of
users - barely literate young children even - interact via this
interface daily and suffer its annoyances, limitations, and/or excesses.

But then again, I could be wrong.  The vast majority of people I talk
to, I do not evangelize about Linux to because there is no point.  When
I meet anyone who even has enough interest to pick up PC magazine,
though, I'll consider bringing it up if we're talking about computers. 

> And emphasizing that they can do just about anything they can under Windoze
> on Linux (using KDE or GNOME) and can stop worrying about spending hours
> each week on anti-virus, anti-snooping, anti-spying downloads and cleanups
> is a major selling point.  Just don't try to sell them things they do not
> want. 

I wouldn't presume to know what users want.  Even having done phone
support, the level of skill among the technologically disinterested -
and their hangups and what winds them up - is greatly varied.  One of
the tips I'd give anyone doing phone support is try to feel out your
customer's skill level as you troubleshoot so you go at the right speed
and amount of detail.

I just don't see this homogenous Windows mindset that you describe,
though certainly if I understand you properly, there is a subset of
Windows users who are like this - they might even be the largest in
terms of total numbers.

If TCS really is comprised of people like this, you can disregard the
rest of this message.  I don't know much about them.  But I have a
feeling, even if all of them use Windows, they've got enough interest in
computers that showing them both Ratpoison and KDE is likely to be
intriguing.

> Me, I'm bailing out of both camps and Going Mac.

Just be sure to post a haughty "I'm leaving ***** distro because I'm fed
up!" post to the mailing list or forums of whatever it is you're leaving
behind (including Windows).  Without this, you could seriously dent the
symmetry and balance of the online OS discussion ecosystem and open a
wormhole or something ;)  

Besides, it's like calisthenics for the users of any OS - no amount of
coffee or exercise can wind up computer partisans like a good solid
"Angrily storming out of here" thread.  Be sure to tell everyone that
their OS is dying as well.  That'll work em into a good lather :)  It's
a tradition!

  -Q7