[Tfug] Re: CIS faculty at PCC west disavow existence of Linux classes

[R351574NC3]

You have my apologies for my indiscretion; however, I expected at least 
some would feel defensive about my comments. I was very judgemental and 
stated comments without any information. They were all just comments.

Teena wrote:

>Leo Przybylski wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I absolutely agree with. Most of the CS students that UA is 
>>churning out lack a lot of Computer Science fundamentals <snip>
>>    
>>
>
>I'm very surprised by your impression of the UA CS department, but perhaps I'm biased since I received my Computer Science degree from that very same department a year ago. Granted, this is not Stanford or MIT but the faculty of this department are some of the top in their field; not the least of whom was Ian Murdock, the founder of Debian.
>
Even Stanford or MIT will not receive any praise from me. Why should UA? 
Simply because of Ian Murdock? Jordan Hubbard could have just as easily 
done the same, and even he would not have made much difference.

My point is that neither the faculty's nor the college's reputation 
alone will inspire the next generation of computer scientists.

>
>  
>
>>Maybe this has much to do with CS' s main focus on 
>>compilers/interpreters and programming languages. I've 
>>noticed that ECE focuses much on fundamentals of patterns, >algorithms, operating systems and hardware with embedded >instruction sets.
>>    
>>
>
>Typically, an academic Computer Science program at the university level grows as an extension of either the Math department or the Engineering department. The emphasis on either "hardware" or "software" is often apparent as to which of these departments it grows from. 
>
>A distinction must be made between the curricula of ECE and CS. ECE focuses on the engineering fundementals -- architecture, hardware design, etc. whereas CS focuses on programming, compilers, filesystems, data structures, and algorithms. It would be erroneous to make judgements on the quality ECE program 
>against a CS program without taking into account the disparate objectives of both programs. I would accept a comparison between the Computer Science programs at other universities but not between the ECE and CS within the same university.
>  
>
Yes, James Hood did point this out to me earlier in the thread. I was 
making a distinction given from most students I encounter though. Many 
students work under our project, and this also means many come in my way 
(under the project or otherwise). I see many from CS, ECE, SIE, etc... 
Many CS students change colleges (to SIE or ECE) upon the 4th year. 
Sometimes it is because this "emphasis on either 'hardware' or 
'software'" is often more *transparent* than "apparent". Othertimes, 
more emphasis on languages (according to many this indoctrinates style) 
is what is given. Often, students speak to me offline about most of the 
very same questions from James Blanford who originally started this thread.

I have never taken any classes from UA in either ECE, CS, MIS, or SIE. I 
know most students from SIE cannot tell me the difference between a 
collaboration and an interaction, most students from CS can't tell me 
what OOA has to do with OOP (apart from being object-oriented) or even 
contrasting examples between object-oriented and object-based. ECE 
students can always hark back to me intricacies unix kernels, debug 
options for kernel development testbeds, and how to emulate Amiga 
hardware to develop PPC 3d software.

>  
>
>>I believe that with CS's focus on interpreters and programming >languages that more CS would be involved than it actually is. 
>>    
>>
>
>A good CS program should teach an in depth understanding of interpreters, compiler design and programming language paradigms -- it would not be a complete CS program without it. 
>
Yes, but what about the fundamentals of CS? I was simply saying that I 
think the CS program over emphasizes in some areas. Perhaps I missed 
something though, and CS undergraduates aren't expected to learn how to 
develop software. I mean, emphasis of compilers/interpreters without 
equal emphasis on CS fundamentals sounds learning how to *use* a 
compiler/interpreter (maybe even the caveats).

>  
>
>>Even the OOP is sub-par.
>>    
>>
>
>I would also strongly deny this. You don't simply become a UA Computer Science student. You must be accepted into the program before you can continue past the 2nd year. A large part of that requirement is to get a B or better in Object Oriented Programming and Design courses. There is a huge emphasis on learning good programming design principles during this "pre-CS" period. If you don't learn it, you will not be accepted to the program until you do.
>  
>
Perhaps a more strict acceptance screening? Maybe broaden CS 
undergraduate scope to cover "programming." I doubt at any rate that I 
would ever be accepted anyway.

>  
>
>>Of course, I have never actually taken any of the CS classes or >the ECE classes. I only obtain this information from students >that come in my way.
>>    
>>
>
>Take a look at the respective websites of both the CS and ECE programs. Talk to students who are actually accepted in either program and who are successful in those programs; or take a class yourself. Do this before making judgements about the quality of a very worthy academic program and the graduates thereof.
>
Yes, I've looked at CS and ECE programs. I venture often into the ECE 
and CCIT labs (both buildings are adjacent to the one I'm in). I even 
speak to faculty. I assure you my judgements are purely my own. I'm sure 
I am one of very few that feel this way, but my preference isn't without 
investigation. I know a few people who have graduated from MIS and from 
CS and have become very successful (none attribute success to UA).

A note almost unrelated: my first mentor received his undergraduate in 
Chemistry before going to Law School and then working for Creative Labs 
as a computer scientist.

I really don't think a CS degree helps anyone (doesn't matter where you 
get it).

>
>Teena
>jasmint at mindspring dot com
>
>_______________________________________________
>tfug mailing list
>tfug@tfug.org
>http://www.tfug.org/mailman/listinfo/tfug
>
-Leo Przybylski
http://foopan.leosandbox.org
http://grow.arizona.edu